by Kyle Patterson
I have had the pleasure of corresponding with Stu Horvath, who among other things is the author of a book entitled ‘Monsters, Aliens, and Holes in the Ground’. It is a history of role-playing games, which would be of interest to me on the merit of its subject alone, but to my delight it was a joy to read. Horvath is a gifted writer, which I think is readily apparent in his ability to make a guide an engaging read; that might sound like a simple thing, but consider how mundane and droll such works typically are. Stu does a fantastic job of infusing this work with his voice and constructing a subtle narrative through the work.
Horvath’s words are augmented by the art of Kyle Patterson, whom I think was a perfect choice for this project. His art naturally pays homage to the rich visual traditions of the gaming industry and follows the structure of the book, which is laid out chronologically by decade. What I find particularly lovely about the art is that all of the paintings pay respect to a wide variety of styles and subject matters in cohesive compositions, crafting stunning conglomerations of ideas which are as evocative as the rest of this history.
I’ve played role-playing games for the majority of my life and consider myself well steeped in their lore, at least the first three decades or so of it. I got more than pleasing feelings of nostalgia reading this book; while Horvath doesn’t exhaustively cover every role-playing game that has been written, he does illuminate corners of the hobby that I had either forgotten or never knew existed. I had a lot of fun learning about things which I had only heard of from the past while remembering my attempts to try and understand the rules and concepts in my dad’s old copy of Chainmail. Reading about the evolution of the gaming industry was a lot of fun. The closer the book gets to the present day, the more stuff I was discovering, parts of the subculture which were brand new to me. I’ve gotten older and my devotions have spread across a variety of passions and concerns. I derive quite a bit of joy from seeing how the hobby is growing from the fertile imaginations of generations building on what has come before.
Two side notes, before we get started:
#1 is a link to a question and answer session that Horvath did on Reddit~ it is a great read and I highly suggest you take a look at it, I found it to be a lot of fun:
Stu Horvath Reddit Q & A
#2 is a link to a short article referenced below by Horvath, which is likely of great interest to many of my readers, on dungeon synth. I didn’t want that to be missed, as it is a delight in and of itself:
By Kyle patterson
CR: Could you tell me about Kyle Patterson and the art in this book? I'm pretty taken with the art choices and would love to hear your thoughts.
SH: I found Kyle via an RPG-inspired art show in Los Angeles, which used his piece as the show's main promotional image. I loved his work instantly -- he's very much in the mode of like a Tony DiTerlizzi, with one foot in the contemporary and the other firmly planted in the golden age of illustration. He's got a real knack for capturing the essence of a thing while still portraying it in a new and exciting way, so when I had the initial thought of illustrated spreads to visually introduce the themes of each decade, Kyle immediately popped in my head as the artist for the job. And I basically just let him do his thing. Those spreads, I think, really capture the look and feel of their respective decades in a way that grounds the narrative for the reader. Whenever he filed a piece, I flew over the moon.
CR: Your writing is really enjoyable to read and I was pleased as could be from the moment I started reading the introduction. Could you talk about the value of reading games and their supplements even if you never have the chance to play them? I think this aspect is often overlooked.
SH: I think the very best RPG scenarios are entertaining to read in their own right, without playing, because they convey the myriad possibilities of that play. Isle of Dread, Dark Tower, Masks of Nyarlathotep, Hot Springs Island all spring to mind pretty immediately. In all of those, play actually acts as a limiter, reducing the overall dynamism of the work; players can really only navigate a single course through many potential paths. That's pretty neat! And it isn't even entirely unique to RPGs. Interactive fiction, both in print and in digital forms, often ring similarly, as to the more game-ish books literary authors like Jorge Luis Borge, Umberto Eco, Italo Calvino, Julio Cortázar and Milorad Pavic, to name just a few. Or any story about stories, even, when it comes down to it.
By Kyle Patterson
CR: As a long time gamer, I spent most of that experience hiding my passion~ gaming was not something that you talked about with people who were not gamers. In your book's introduction, you speak about the shift of talking to the internet community; it might sound strange to younger readers, but it is an amazing thing to witness so many people discussing role playing games online. One of my favorite things about social media are the communities of people on the fringe that it supports. Your Instagram account is a delight to follow and read~ the Dragon magazine covers you have posted bring me back to a teenaged version of myself whose relationship to gaming and fantasy and science fiction was something that was intensely personal and that didn't even overlap that much with some of the people I gamed with. It is a nice feeling to see people talking about and celebrating these things. When you started your journey into the history of role-playing games, were you aware that you'd be tapping into feelings like this for people? How does it feel to be actively creating connections of this sort?
SH: I think I was fortunate in my teen years in the '90s. I found like-minded nerds pretty early and my high school was relatively free of the brutal social hierarchies that some folks have to deal with, perhaps because there was such a high percentage of diverse weirdos. So while I didn't really talk to folks about RPGs outside my game group, it was rooted in a perceived lack of interest in the larger student body rather than a fear of getting shoved in a locker.
It has really surprised me how strongly some folks react to the sort of autobiographical segments of both the book and the Instagram feed, because I only ever think of my experiences as my own. Like, as a writer, I guess, I expect the honesty I try to inject into my writing to resonate in a broad way, but when it actually hits folks in specific ways, I am never really prepared for that, if that makes sense. I get so many comments about the book introduction -- so many people had the same experience I did standing in front of the RPG shelves at the Waldenbooks in Willowbrook Mall in the '80s and '90s. They bought the books I didn't, and vice versa. So, it kind of works the same way Kyle's art does -- it seems to distill some aspect of an essential experience that many people have shared while also being firmly my experience. It's weird! And while it's extremely gratifying to see it resonate with folks on that level, I can't claim that this is by design; it's really an organic side effect of how I write.
CR: I think you did a great job of describing how the book came together and grew organically out of your love of games and collecting, your Instagram account, and the podcast~ so I'm not going to retread that ground too much through questions.
What are some things you feel you learned while writing this book? You put an immense amount of scholarship and passion into this. I'd love to hear if you developed any understanding about yourself or saw any patterns or became aware of things relating to the history of role playing games as you went through your creative process.
I was fascinated by so many sections of your book~ seeing role-playing evolve and grow into so many directions has always been a fun pastime, but I came to realize just how little I understood of the whole picture while reading. There were so many things I had only tertiary knowledge of, in all the decades, but when you talked about the recent works and particularly the zines, I was enthralled. Do you have any guesses about how role playing might evolve in the future? I realize that is a pretty weird question, so I'll try phrasing it differently: what kinds of things would you be delighted to see develop out of role playing games?
SH: I'm sure I learned a bunch of things, though nothing in particular leaps out just now -- those facts have either been internalized or have grown fuzzy over time. I do think that writing the book revealed a wholeness of the hobby that I would not have otherwise perceived. The whole thing seems to have tides, in and out, up and down, constantly cycling backwards to create new things to carry on into the future. The connections and pathways between products and designs. And how all that sort of comes out naturally when you arrange the different games along a linear timeline. Originally, the book was arranged thematically -- a chapter on dungeon stuff, wilderness stuff, licensed games, story games, and so on, but in the act of merely organizing my notes it became pretty clear that going in something close to chronological order reveals all these little storylines that, I think, come through in the text. All of this might seem rather obvious in hindsight, but it wasn't clear at the start, at least to me!
I would love to see the hobby continue to grow and spiral into ever stranger niches. We have relatively inexpensive printing available, sturdy methods of crowdfunding and hearty third-party design communities for many games, all of which, I think, adds up to a recipe for wild innovation and also relative stability, despite the market contracting somewhat. It's going to be an interesting couple years ahead.
By Kyle Patterson
CR: There are so many things which are role-playing adjacent and/or related in our culture. I enjoyed reading your writings about the music. I was wondering if you've ever heard of dungeon synth?
SH: I'm somewhat familiar with dungeon synth! I just wrote an essay about it for The Believer!
CR: That is a beautiful essay on dungeon synth, thank you. Are there any other writers or gaming historians you might recommend to people who enjoy your work?
SH: Certainly Shannon Appelcline. And I love Lawrence Schick's Heroic Worlds, though that is hard to come by. All those oddball how-to guidebooks from the 80s have their charms -- Holmes' Fantasy Role Playing Games, Livingstone's Dicing with Dragons, What is Dungeons & Dragons, Through Dungeons Deep...Gygax even wrote two, though I only own Role-Playing Mastery, which is a hilarious title/concept. Far less silly, for more capital-I Important is Aaron Trammel's work with The Privilege of Play, as well as his other writing, which really tackles a lot of the assumptions the hobby collectively makes about itself. Peter Bebergal's excellent fiction anthology Appendix N, as well. Not to be confused with the reactionary commentary by Jeffro Johnson.
By Kyle Patterson
So many thanks to Stu for his patience. Below is a painting of Stu by kyle, as well as links to his other work and information on purchasing the book. Stu is an accomplished writer and podcaster and has an incredible instagram feed.
Stu Horvath's Link Tree
And Finally, here is a Painting of Kyle, by Kyle, as well as links to his Website, his equally impressive Instagram Feed, and Art Prints.
Both of these incredibly talented individuals are inspiring to me and I hope you enjoyed reading about them.
Interested in supporting this website? I’d sure appreciate it, this is a passion project that takes time and financial upkeep and any help you could spare would be awesome. Help with the links below and share this interview if you’re inclined.
Buy Continuous Revelations A Coffee
Listen to or purchase my music
More to come soon and lovely interviews in Process~ See you soon.